Androgyne Frame of Reference
My frame of reference:
Androgyne: mixed gender, free to be, unlimited, blurred, solitary, misunderstood, invisible, gender dysphoric, balance, fluid, honesty, gender decisive, spectrum, yin & yang, body-mind-soul,
Androgyne: mixed gender, free to be, unlimited, blurred, solitary, misunderstood, invisible, gender dysphoric, balance, fluid, honesty, gender decisive, spectrum, yin & yang, body-mind-soul,
Answering the question that the post is asking, (not divert it from one of the tangents already travelled):
I answered mostly.
The points that I dont agree with are the spiritual, religious, metaphysist stuff. To me those points are too much, and are more subjective. Also the words that are more children oriented.
Spiritual- I am not spiritual or religious or anything like that. To me this is a point of religion not of gender identity. My religion is a hybrid of zen/psychology, with not beliefs in god(s). More humanistic.
Divine- This was almost laughable. I assume this is following the standard definition of "of or pertaining to a god". Also a religious definition that would depend on one's view of god, in comparison to one's gender identity. Also denoting some sort of superhuman, god given powers or something like that.
Transcendent- Maybe if used in the proper context, but I think easily used with mysticism and new age context. Also much religious connotation. I hate words that try to show some sort of superior understanding or sage-ness.
Childlike- Maybe if used more metaphorically rather than literal. I am involved in a adult type relationship, and dont consider me anything near child-whatever. If used more in the sense of prior gender divide. But gender divide is a whole issue in itself. That would assume the existence of a real permanent gender divide, something which I am against. Although I have used in my own experience that I was divided, I think using such words have more connotation to pedophilia, middle age conflicts, and immaturity. I would rather at this point in my life, recognize the lack of division and fluidity of gender rather than boxes, divisions, and separation.
Naïve- If used in a wrong manner would assume lack of cognitive understanding. Also might mean that there is a truth outside that one does not yet realize. In other words might mean androgyne being more fantasy than reality.
I answered mostly.
The points that I dont agree with are the spiritual, religious, metaphysist stuff. To me those points are too much, and are more subjective. Also the words that are more children oriented.
Spiritual- I am not spiritual or religious or anything like that. To me this is a point of religion not of gender identity. My religion is a hybrid of zen/psychology, with not beliefs in god(s). More humanistic.
Divine- This was almost laughable. I assume this is following the standard definition of "of or pertaining to a god". Also a religious definition that would depend on one's view of god, in comparison to one's gender identity. Also denoting some sort of superhuman, god given powers or something like that.
Transcendent- Maybe if used in the proper context, but I think easily used with mysticism and new age context. Also much religious connotation. I hate words that try to show some sort of superior understanding or sage-ness.
Childlike- Maybe if used more metaphorically rather than literal. I am involved in a adult type relationship, and dont consider me anything near child-whatever. If used more in the sense of prior gender divide. But gender divide is a whole issue in itself. That would assume the existence of a real permanent gender divide, something which I am against. Although I have used in my own experience that I was divided, I think using such words have more connotation to pedophilia, middle age conflicts, and immaturity. I would rather at this point in my life, recognize the lack of division and fluidity of gender rather than boxes, divisions, and separation.
Naïve- If used in a wrong manner would assume lack of cognitive understanding. Also might mean that there is a truth outside that one does not yet realize. In other words might mean androgyne being more fantasy than reality.
Looking in the major English language Dictionaries for both words.
Here are definitions of Androgyne. Most definitions refer to androgyne as an "androgynous person".
There are no definitions for bigender in the dictionaries yet. Though one would assume that eventually all common used words make it to the dictionary.
Androgyne Dictionary Definitions:
MSN Encarta 1. androgynous person: somebody who seems to have both male and female sexual characteristics
2. biology Same as hermaphrodite (sense 1)
[Mid-16th century. Via French and Latin< Greek androgunos< andro- "man" + gunē "woman"]
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861585521
Oxford Dictionary /andrjin/
• noun 1 an androgynous individual. 2 a hermaphrodite
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/androgyne?view=uk
Marriam-Webster Etymology: Middle English androgine, from Latin androgynus
: one that is androgynous
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=androgyne
American Heritage NOUN: An androgynous individual
http://www.bartleby.com/61/26/A0292600.html
Rather the term seems more prevalent used since Androgyne Online's creation, and their addition of the information to the Wikipedia.
Which defines it as such Definition which has its origin as far as I can tell in the Androgyne Essay which was revised earlier this year and switched from including bigender, to suddenly excluding.
Androgyne Online Essay Current Version [Which Excludes Bigender][Which only recently this year removed the prior version's inclusion of bigendered as a synonym or included, was revised.]
Androgyne Online Essay Original Version [Which includes bigender as a synonym] Which has been posted for the last 6 years, prior to the revision]
You can read the evolution of the change in the page http://androgyne.0catch.com/old.htm
Is there any other source of dictionary that I am missing? Last year Stephe Feldman's definition included bigender, and this year sie changed it to exclude. After reading Stephe's own story of hir own confusion, opinion of hir own essay, disclaimer of it's absolute validity, and rocky experiences, even up to recent, such source isn't a good concrete source.Stephe Fieldman's Conflict
Quote
Here are definitions of Androgyne. Most definitions refer to androgyne as an "androgynous person".
There are no definitions for bigender in the dictionaries yet. Though one would assume that eventually all common used words make it to the dictionary.
Androgyne Dictionary Definitions:
MSN Encarta 1. androgynous person: somebody who seems to have both male and female sexual characteristics
2. biology Same as hermaphrodite (sense 1)
[Mid-16th century. Via French and Latin< Greek androgunos< andro- "man" + gunē "woman"]
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861585521
Oxford Dictionary /andrjin/
• noun 1 an androgynous individual. 2 a hermaphrodite
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/androgyne?view=uk
Marriam-Webster Etymology: Middle English androgine, from Latin androgynus
: one that is androgynous
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=androgyne
American Heritage NOUN: An androgynous individual
http://www.bartleby.com/61/26/A0292600.html
Rather the term seems more prevalent used since Androgyne Online's creation, and their addition of the information to the Wikipedia.
Which defines it as such Definition which has its origin as far as I can tell in the Androgyne Essay which was revised earlier this year and switched from including bigender, to suddenly excluding.
Androgyne Online Essay Current Version [Which Excludes Bigender][Which only recently this year removed the prior version's inclusion of bigendered as a synonym or included, was revised.]
Quote
Androgyne (pronounced AN-dra-jine) is the term used to describe persons who are androgynous. Androgyny, first and foremost, is a state of mind, not just an attitude or fashion statement. The notion that only androgynous-looking people can be or are androgynous is a misconception. Androgynes can be said to have the gender identity of both a man and a woman -- or neither. Some identify with both traditional genders, while others see their identity as more of a synthesis and consider themselves to be agendered, as in "other" or "none of the above." Some androgynes go as far as to call themselves "gender outlaw" (a term popularized by Kate Bornstein).
Other names for androgyne (Greek for man/woman) are agendered, ambigendered, epicene, gender gifted, gender outlaw, intergendered (a term coined by intersex people), non-binary gender variant, nongendered, the third gender, and the fourth gender. Related but non-synonymous terms would be eunuch, bigendered (which applies mostly to crossdressers), gender bender, genderqueer, gender variant, hijra, neutrois, the third sex (which is usually a misnomer), transgenderist, and two-spirit.
Other names for androgyne (Greek for man/woman) are agendered, ambigendered, epicene, gender gifted, gender outlaw, intergendered (a term coined by intersex people), non-binary gender variant, nongendered, the third gender, and the fourth gender. Related but non-synonymous terms would be eunuch, bigendered (which applies mostly to crossdressers), gender bender, genderqueer, gender variant, hijra, neutrois, the third sex (which is usually a misnomer), transgenderist, and two-spirit.
Androgyne Online Essay Original Version [Which includes bigender as a synonym] Which has been posted for the last 6 years, prior to the revision]
Quote
Androgyne (pronounced ANDRAjine) is the term used to describe persons who are androgynous. Androgyny, first and foremost, is a state of mind, not just an attitude or fashion statement. The notion that only androgynous-looking people can be or are androgynous is a misconception. Androgynes can be said to have the gender identity of both a man and a woman -- or neither. That is to say, some androgynes consider themselves to be bigendered in that they identify with both traditional genders, while others see their identity as more of a synthesis and consider themselves to be "other" -- hence, agendered.
Other names for androgyne (Greek for man/woman) are hijra, Two Spirit, the third sex, gender gifted, bigendered, intergendered, ambigendered, nongendered, and agendered.
Other names for androgyne (Greek for man/woman) are hijra, Two Spirit, the third sex, gender gifted, bigendered, intergendered, ambigendered, nongendered, and agendered.
You can read the evolution of the change in the page http://androgyne.0catch.com/old.htm
Is there any other source of dictionary that I am missing? Last year Stephe Feldman's definition included bigender, and this year sie changed it to exclude. After reading Stephe's own story of hir own confusion, opinion of hir own essay, disclaimer of it's absolute validity, and rocky experiences, even up to recent, such source isn't a good concrete source.Stephe Fieldman's Conflict
Quote
I burned out sometime in 2004, frustrated that I was not able to convey my androgyne nature in everyday life without appearing gay instead of androgyne. On page 342 of the 2007 book, The Fenway Guide to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Health, I am the "client" referred to. See below:
Depression can also arise in persons who do not necessarily qualify for the diagnosis of GID, but do experience a certain amount of gender dysphoria. Such people may not identify as either male or female, and therefore do not gain outside validation of a gender identity different from the male/female binary. For example, one client who was born biologically male and identified as androgyne sought to present her gender as androgynous, as this felt most genuine to her (the client is comfortable using both male and female pronouns). However, she found that although she could convincingly present as either male or female, she was not able to find a way to appear androgynous. Eventually she came to accept her gender identity as separate from her gender presentation. However, the client continues to experience depression, low self-esteem, and feelings of rejection and isolation due to the inability of others to recognize her as androgyne. [. . .]
The writer of the above incorrectly ascribed my depression, low self-esteem, and feelings of rejection and isolation specifically to being androgyne, while the truth is that is both because of my androgyneity and because of my Asperger's Syndrome, with perhaps more emphasis on the latter.
Depression can also arise in persons who do not necessarily qualify for the diagnosis of GID, but do experience a certain amount of gender dysphoria. Such people may not identify as either male or female, and therefore do not gain outside validation of a gender identity different from the male/female binary. For example, one client who was born biologically male and identified as androgyne sought to present her gender as androgynous, as this felt most genuine to her (the client is comfortable using both male and female pronouns). However, she found that although she could convincingly present as either male or female, she was not able to find a way to appear androgynous. Eventually she came to accept her gender identity as separate from her gender presentation. However, the client continues to experience depression, low self-esteem, and feelings of rejection and isolation due to the inability of others to recognize her as androgyne. [. . .]
The writer of the above incorrectly ascribed my depression, low self-esteem, and feelings of rejection and isolation specifically to being androgyne, while the truth is that is both because of my androgyneity and because of my Asperger's Syndrome, with perhaps more emphasis on the latter.
This is Tehenu's view, one early writer of one large Androgyne group
Tahenu's Conflict
Quote
I seem to have evoked quite deep philosophical ponderings with my
series of essays. That is good in itself as it helps us understand
what the world is like. However, philosophy often stays outside the
person pondering it. Meeting one's own self requires something in
addition to that.
What I did find was not a perfect philosophical structure into which
I would be a perfect fit. No - far from it! In fact, I have
formulated no comprehensive philosophy of androgyny. Even though
many of you say being a non-conformant, there is always a danger that
you still define yourself through androgyny. Non-conforming
androgyny, for sure, but androgyny all the same.
Instead of searching for your idea of androgyny and then trying to
model it in your life, how about searching for the real you. That
real self is partly made of androgyny, but it is not all there
is. Instead of thinking how a non-conforming androgyne would handle
a specific situation that I encounter, I try to learn to listen to my
Inner Being.
In order to meet people as individuals, it is important for me to be
an individual as well. Any philosophical construct - be it
cisgendered, transgendered or nongendered - is an impediment to
living as me. When I can break all those shells and live here and
now all the time, have I become myself. That is not something you
can ever become completely, but it is a goal to reach for.
I was able to connect to those women exactly because I stopped
emulating. Emulating a man, a woman, an androgyne, a scholar, a
philosoph, a shaman, a spiritual being, whatever. And stopping the
emulation is one of the hardest things you can do, because then you
are alone. Alone. Really Alone.
However, the good thing is that being alone in that sense is the most
important prerequisite for really connecting to others. You just
need to dare to jump over the dark pit of loneliness.
Tehanu
series of essays. That is good in itself as it helps us understand
what the world is like. However, philosophy often stays outside the
person pondering it. Meeting one's own self requires something in
addition to that.
What I did find was not a perfect philosophical structure into which
I would be a perfect fit. No - far from it! In fact, I have
formulated no comprehensive philosophy of androgyny. Even though
many of you say being a non-conformant, there is always a danger that
you still define yourself through androgyny. Non-conforming
androgyny, for sure, but androgyny all the same.
Instead of searching for your idea of androgyny and then trying to
model it in your life, how about searching for the real you. That
real self is partly made of androgyny, but it is not all there
is. Instead of thinking how a non-conforming androgyne would handle
a specific situation that I encounter, I try to learn to listen to my
Inner Being.
In order to meet people as individuals, it is important for me to be
an individual as well. Any philosophical construct - be it
cisgendered, transgendered or nongendered - is an impediment to
living as me. When I can break all those shells and live here and
now all the time, have I become myself. That is not something you
can ever become completely, but it is a goal to reach for.
I was able to connect to those women exactly because I stopped
emulating. Emulating a man, a woman, an androgyne, a scholar, a
philosoph, a shaman, a spiritual being, whatever. And stopping the
emulation is one of the hardest things you can do, because then you
are alone. Alone. Really Alone.
However, the good thing is that being alone in that sense is the most
important prerequisite for really connecting to others. You just
need to dare to jump over the dark pit of loneliness.
Tehanu
Tehanu's 2005 Confusion and Disconnect from others.
Quote
In December 2005 I also resigned from the moderator and owner roles
of this group. After all, I felt having failed androgyny as well. I
needed to take a fresh look at myself, including androgyny, and in
order to do that, I needed to resign from the role that had so far
defined my essence very strongly.
of this group. After all, I felt having failed androgyny as well. I
needed to take a fresh look at myself, including androgyny, and in
order to do that, I needed to resign from the role that had so far
defined my essence very strongly.
Quote
My key to success was to be myself. Last time I needed to connect so
badly that I was ready to do just anything. Which is what I
did. And failed. Which made me think I am not an
androgyne. However, in retrospect I see it only proved that I am not
any of them. I am me, instead.
badly that I was ready to do just anything. Which is what I
did. And failed. Which made me think I am not an
androgyne. However, in retrospect I see it only proved that I am not
any of them. I am me, instead.
"Concerning your last post: 'Androgyny' can be physical, socio-political, or psychological.
Perhaps you missed this website while seeking online reference sources for Androgyne Gender Identity, K/K?"
Perhaps you missed this website while seeking online reference sources for Androgyne Gender Identity, K/K?"
The last post was Stephe Feldman's quotes, the website owner of Androgyne Online and writer of that info. I think Stephe posted the Wikipedia, or someone from circle of friends. I dont know who wrote the scottland info on the link you posted, since they dont state their name looking over the site.
The definition reply was in regards to whoever mentioned that the definitions came from a common dictionary, which was maybe you who mentioned this. I was just showing the common english language definitions found in the regular dictionaries.
"Take care to not confuse an hermaphroditic body with an androgynous mind, nor a philosophy of androgyny with an intrinsic gender identity. "
I dont recall anyone saying anything about hermaphroditic bodies are androgynous minds. There are male bodied, female bodied, and a few transitioning bodied members at this site. Dont know of any hermaphoroditic bodied androgynes. My body that I have now, feels comfortable to me, though I wish I had longer legs, lol.
"This isn't about hermaphrodites, social androgyny, or androgynous lifestyles. Our concerns and the subject of this thread lay solely with the gender identity within the mind. Intrinsic gender, not extrinsic."
[whistles...]
"Androgynes are known as the silent majority of the Transgender world."
I laugh every time I read that quote, then see androgynes that immediately trying to exclude as many people as they can from the group. Not just on this site, but on various message boards. Its sorta like the your not tranny enough version. How many transgendered person's are androgyne? Silent majority is how many? Shouldn't it read "silent minority"?
And apparently must limit their conversations also.
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